with a prepaid card. spends like cash. feels like membership. good morning from new york i'm chris hayes. over 2 million people are without power this morning following hurricane sandy. a new jersey election officials announced voters displaced by the storm will be able to vote via e-mail or fax. right now, joining me today, josh barrel, columnist for view. joy reed, managing editor of our sister website, the grio.com. my boss where she is editor and publisher and rob herbert. it's great to have you all back

at the table. well, in case you haven't noticed, we are two days away from the election. polls suggest the president is holding a small, but significant lead in key states. a poll has president obama up five points in that state and two new nbc news polls have the president leading by six points in ohio and two in florida. the polls in these key states relatively stable over the last few weeks. it seems there's little persuading left to do. both sides agree on what is going to decide the campaign. that's turnout. they touted his party's get out to vote. >> we are far ahead of where we were in 2008. we are going to be -- you know, our ground game is better than their ground game. we are going to do more voter contacts this year than all of 2008 and all of 2004 combined. we have an army on the ground. >> democrats for their part have

invested in a robust, cutting edge program in swing states. joe biden said at a meeting on thursday is what's going to put president obama over the top. >> hey, you know, you know why we're going to win? because of you all. no, i'm serious. i generally mean it. you know, the thing is -- the difference in this election, once again is the ground game. because of you and iowa, ohio, wisconsin, colorado, north carolina, we have the best ground game because of you all. seriously, of any presidential campaign in history. it's going to make the difference. it's going to make a difference. >> so far, at least the numbers seem to bear by. democrats hold a significant edge among early voters in key swing states, florida, iowa,

nevada. republicans hold an edge in colorado. democrats are mobilizing their voters effectively. will that trend hold on election day and how much of a difference will it make? i find something fascinating on the focus of turnout. turnout and field operations were the redheaded stepchild of campaigns. all the money, glamour and glory were in tv ad buzz. things started to change. the republicans instituted a get out and vote program that was effective in 2004, particularly. there was a thing called 72-hour project. it was karl rove's project. there was act in 2004. you know, it's funny. people forget when talking independent expenditures. there was a different universe in 2004 on the democratic side that was under 527 as opposed to super packs. it was done independent of the

campaigns and largely field efforts. what's amaze sg the status of field increased. i think people are now persuaded in the world of politics of the importance of this. i think it's a kind that represents a change in opinions about how we think of these elections. act was not successful in their goal of trying to help john kerry get elected, what survived was a reliance on data. they were simply changing the idea from campaigns being grass roots to talking with folks to be microtargeting. we are going to look at this block. this house, this house, this house are likely democratic households. this person is the target, not that person. we are going to contact them over and over again until we get them out to vote. using data was migrated into the obama campaign. we are going to be in a video

game. we are in your video game and there's an obama ad. we are going find where you live like coca-cola targets you. it's survived tharks model. >> it's very important. obama seems to have mastered this whole thing. the microtargeting, the sophisticated analysis, there's a little thing called the voters and things called issues and how you get voters energized in your candidacy and in your platform. i think we lose a great deal of that in when we start talking so much about what is it going to take -- >> wait. defend that. defend that. >> i'll second the motion. >> i'm going to argue both of you. >> i'll second the motion. it's become a science, this microtargeting of voters. you lose sight of the people, lose sight of the issues on the ground.

however, if you have field offices in all the communities, counties in ohio, you are trying to engage people on the ground. it's better than the air war, which republicans relied on. here is the deal. to me, the democrats, at best are trying to expand the electorate. right? we are going to see a lot of fighting come november 6th. the republicans talk a good game on that, but they are not doing that. they are doing the ad war, bringing in the big guns. >> trying to shrink the electorate. >> the last three weeks we have seen 36 independent non-disclosed super packs come in with millions and millions. that's about shrinking the electorate, distancing voters from politics. >> let me argue with this idea for a second. here is the number of obama and romney field offices in swing states. what you see, the theme here, the blue bars, there are many

more obama offices around. full disclosure, my brother is an organizer on the campaign for five years. he started in 2007 and is now a state director in nevada. i see it through his eyes. there's a degree, when it functions best, there's a feedback. if you have people going to the doors every day and doing constant focus grouping and constant interactions with voters to see what's moving them, that's democracy at its core. if you are finding when you go to the doors, women age 20 to 35 really are worried about birth control and access to it. then, what you see is that moves the way the president talks. >> it's too cold. it's too cold. it's chilling. it's like the big ad corporations. what you want to do is get a feel for the electorate long before it's election time. then provide the kind of leadership to get people pumped up about your program in advance

and have the field offices and your field operation come in as profound tools to get those voters to the polls. >> there is something -- i believe -- listen, what we are talking about. >> i'm amazed. >> i know. i am retail politicking. going door-to-door, speaking to the working people of pennsylvania or ohio, trying to find out what's on their mind. here is the deal. that's somewhat different than someone from the democratic party doing microtargeting to move you to the polls because are they going to be with you after election day? >> that's the question. >> i have to defend, since i worked -- >> back on the anti-data. >> we are -- liberals are the data people. we believe in the math. the bottom line is, it's been shown person-to-person contacts

matter more and move people more than a generic message. the idea you would do blanket targeting and blanket messaging rather than this doesn't make sense. presenting them with issues. that is the time you need to move people to the polls. tough presume your policies are already something they favor. it's why you are targeting. >> it's different. that's what is being done. >> it's riding people to the polls. >> why are liberals the data people. i don't want us to be the data people. i want us to be the people people. we are turning the voters into data points instead of people. >> josh -- >> i'm actually amused by the reaction here. i think it's similar to the way a lot of liberals react to corporate marketing. target figures out you are pregnant before others know. >> it's creepy. >> i think it's great.

companies know what i want. >> you have the e-mail saying you have been inseminated, that's a great e-mail. >> here is the thing -- >> why not do it on the political spectrum. >> right wingers think it's good, too. what they are for, i'm against. >> the republicans do less of this. >> exactly. >> it's a mistake on their part. >> i agree, it helps you win elections. it doesn't help run the country. it especially does not help the people. does it do anything, for example to help poor people in this country? no. >> the electorate isn't one thing. it's a diverse group of people. it allows you to get out messages that wouldn't be broad enough -- >> let me say one thing -- >> this erupted at the table. >> we are the party of science and reason. but, let's say you go to someone's door and it's not just six weeks out.

they say the most important thing to me in jobs. >> right. >> where does that factor into what emerges after the election. >> it does. >> hold that thought. i want to bring in the person who literally wrote the book on this. he wrote a book about the technology and the cutting edge of campaign techniques. after we take this break, we are going to talk to him. [ female announcer ] you can make macaroni & cheese without freshly-made pasta. you could also cut corners by making it without 100% real cheddar cheese. but then...it wouldn't be stouffer's mac & cheese.

just one of over 70 satisfying recipes for one from stouffer's. yeah, and i took on all the bigger, tougher ones. but now that mr. clean's got this new select-a-size magic eraser, i mean, he can take on any size job. look how easily he gets things cleaned. it's enough to make you cry. you, specifically. not me. i'm just happy we don't go near rex's mobile home as often. because it's hard to clean or because you're scared of an itty-bitty doggy? [ dog barks ] aah! oh! [ clears throat ] yeah, that was a sneeze. i think i sprayed myself. [ male announcer ] new mr. clean select-a-size magic eraser. lets you pick the right size for every job. the capability of a pathfinder with the comfort of a sedan and create a next-gen s.u.v. with best-in-class fuel economy

of 26 miles per gallon, highway, and best-in-class passenger roominess? yeah, that would be cool. introducing the all-new nissan pathfinder. it's our most innovative pathfinder ever. nissan. innovation that excites. ♪

i want to bring in sasha, a columnist and author of "the victory lab." i think you have seen our heated argument about the benefits and perhaps drawbacks of this cutting edge field. before you weigh in on that because i think i know where you stand on that, my first question to you is, is the obama turnout program hype or are they doing

something that hasn't been done before? >> yeah, i mean the quality of data and the analysis they are doing on the obama campaign is way ahead of -- it's ahead of where they were in '08. there's generally a huge advantage the left has over the right that is apparent. what obama is doing and what allies like -- like, the afl, it's a larger gap between how the left and right practice politics on the ground than there's been in any other aspect in campaigning in the last generation. >> one of the things you have written about. the book is fantastic. i recommend people take a look. >> thank you. >> there's been this impure schism brought. i say this with all the freight that it carries to the al ka mists at the table.

you have people that are actually coming out of academia and doing actual field experiments, controlled experiments and using that to bring it to bear. i want to show this study from 2009. one of the people you talk about. he went through and said does having a field office actually increase turnout? he did this analysis, the democratic vote chair in counties without a field office. he found there was a significant difference. he thought the presence at field office, if you have an obama office, the turnout over if you didn't. those three states, in that election weren't the margin, but they could be here. >> right. everything we know from the last decade, the two major innovations are the use of the experimen experiments. the cause and effect of interaction.

we could talk about the people talking with their neighbors. because they have done randomized trials, there's a value to a conversation over the similar conversation on the phone. we know a volunteer has more of an impact mobilizing a voter than a call center. if they don't introduce themselves, voters can hear the difference. chatty spurts, which are interactions with back and forth between the canvas and the voter, robotic scripts where i read at you, don't have. the reason the campaigns are opening field offices is because they are able to price those, put a value on those individual interactions that they weren't able to 10, 15 years ago. it's not just people putting out field offices because they want to be closer to the people. they know the value of being closer to the people they want to move. >> some of the pioneers are donald green and gerger.

they were the first people to do this kind of field tests controlled experiment. what you mentioned, i want to throw this up. the number of people you need to contact per vote, this is a big finding. if you send out non-partisan mail, you have to send out 200 people. if you go to a volunteer phone bank or commercial phone bank, you are down to 35 people and door-to-door, you are 14 people. every 14 people you talk to, you will get a vote. those are the kind of metrics we have. what is your problem with that, katrina? >> let's have a chatty script, interactive, not robotic script. i respect the idea of going door-to-door. i respect the feedback. here is a radical idea. keep those field offices in those towns and communities after the election. you want a real feedback --

>> it does not translate into policy. >> there is a difference. i think you said this during the break, chris. there's a difference between marketing and democracy. that line is getting blurred. we need to watch out for that. i respect the door-to-door, the volunteers. i want the feedback loops to go back. the first step is voting on election day and what follows is building out of politics. >> let's disaggregate the two questions. there's a question about the effectiveness of winning elections. there's not a lot of question about it to the extent you believe in controlled experiments and so forth. i'm looking at you guys over there. but, then there's a broader kind of moral political theoretical question about democratic theory, what are the implications for a democratic mandate you may or may not have after winning this. >> one of the innovations,

organizing for america, the field operation in 2008 did, when the campaign was over, ofa did not go away. those offices did continue to exist and the contacts continued. people who got the text messages kept getting them and they are getting them today. david plouffe didn't become the political director because he stays with ofa. they left those in place. it's why he has such a field advantage. >> jeremy bird is a master mind over there. he says community organizing is not a turnkey operation. you can't throw up phone banks and call that organizing. they know their communities, it's real, deep, community organizing in a way we didn't have time to do in 2008. i want to come back. i know you -- i think the use of the term community organizing to

describe this work is troubling for you. sasha, i want to get you back in here. humans -- even when we cross our t's and dot our i's, we still run into problems. namely, other humans. which is why, at liberty mutual insurance, auto policies come with new car replacement and accident forgiveness if you qualify. see what else comes standard at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? customer erin swenson bought so, i'm happy. today. sales go up... i'm happy. it went out today... i'm happy. what if she's not home? (together) she won't be happy. use ups! she can get a text alert, reroute...

even reschedule her package. it's ups my choice. are you happy? i'm happy. i'm happy. i'm happy. i'm happy. i'm happy. happy. happy. happy. happy. (together) happy. i love logistics. that's a good thing, but it doesn't cover everything. only about 80% of your part b medical expenses. the rest is up to you. so consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like all standardized medicare supplement plans, they help save you up to thousands in out-of-pocket costs. call today to request a free decision guide. with these types of plans, you'll be able to visit any doctor or hospital that accepts medicare patients... plus, there are no networks, and you'll never need a referral to see a specialist. join the millions who have already enrolled in the only medicare supplement insurance plans

endorsed by aarp... and provided by unitedhealthcare insurance company, which has over 30 years of experience behind it. with all the good years ahead, look for the experience and commitment to go the distance with you. call now to request your free decision guide. gives you 1% cash back on all purchases, plus a 50% annual bonus. and everyone likes 50% more... [ midwestern/chicago accent ] cheddar! yeah! 50 percent more [yodeling] yodel-ay-ee-oo. 50% more flash. [ southern accent ] 50 percent more taters. that's where tots come from. [ male announcer ] the capital one cash rewards card gives you 1% cash back on every purchase plus a 50% annual bonus on the cash you earn. it's the card for people who like more cash. 50% more spy stuff. what's in your wallet? this car is too small. at legalzoom, we've created a better place to turn for your legal matters. maybe you want to incorporate a business you'd like to start. or protect your family with a will or living trust. legalzoom makes it easy with step-by-step help

when completing your personalized document -- or you can even access an attorney to guide you along. with an "a" rating from the better business bureau legalzoom helps you get personalized and affordable legal protection. in most states, a legal plan attorney is available with every personalized document to answer any questions. get started at legalzoom.com today. and now you're protected. all right, sasha, can you tell me what your expectation is? first, walk me through, now that this data is built up, the id is done. most of the persuasion, which is what you have written about, how do you find possible, movable votes? how do you make sure that someone gets out to vote? there's an amazing thing that people on the internet had mixed feelings, the pledge the obama campaign had of people taking photos of themselves pledging to vote.

that was rooted in experimental results about what is the best way to make sure people turn up to vote? >> it's a version of something we know from experiments that started a decade ago. if you get somebody to fill out a pledge card and remind them of a commitment they have made, they are more likely to follow through on it. this is out of the behavioral sciences. one of the things people translated from psych journals into campaigns saying can we have this to motivate people to vote? one of the most successful tools, get them to fill out a card and you send them back a card with their handwriting on it immediately before the election with their reminder. >> we know where you live in a kind of menacing kidnapper scrawl. you had a question? >> yeah. i want to ask sasha, the democrats took this up more

enthusiastically than the republicans. do you think it's a mistake on the republicans part or a matter of circumstances where they are less diverse and maybe microtargeting isn't as essential there? >> i think that historically democrats have invested more in field and in-person voter contact generally because they have underperforming parts of the their coalition, minorities, underprivileged people. what happened between 2000 and 2004 was the bush team took seriously the need to identify and engage under what they thought were underperforming parts of their coalition. they have this interest in making serious investments in field and geo tv at the rnc and bush campaign in 2004.

democratic voters are in more democratic precincts. republicans, you know, you can't do that. so, you go to a precinct in idaho, you have to drive 20 minutes between houses. there's not the same volunteer activity. >> i thought a segway was going to reinvent republican campaigning. >> direct mail. one of the things we saw in 2004 was an invisible bush campaign. we never saw their organizers but they manage to do well in florida. has there been any data or studies about the effectiveness of mail versus door-to-door operations? >> yeah. a lot of the get out the vote tools are delivered over mail. that's one way that for a lot of psychological interventions you can give people information in a

highly targeted way. one of the things is use of social pressure. behavioral science. if you let people know whether or not the vote is public, it's on file, their neighbors can know and judge them, is really effective. the way you can deliver that message is send a letter saying here is your vote history. here is your neighbor's vote history. >> that, i think, in the gerber and green stuff, it's most effective in terms of driving turnout. sketch out for us what is happening right now. what is tuesday going to look like if you could sketch for us for the people who aren't going to be on the ground in swing states, what the turnout operation looked like. >> yeah. obviously, early vote changed the rhythm of this. you have states where tuesday is going to be a relatively small share of the electorate. it does not look a lot different from the saturdays and sundays

where the campaigns tried to do a full flush of targets. there's a widowing process. the campaign pushes out, you know, a year and a half ago trying to figure out people who are going to vote for them. push them aside. you have the people who are going to vote and persuade. the people who are left tend to be, you know, low to mid propensity voters. the campaign assessing a 35% to 55% chance of voting in the microtargeting scores. what's really changed is a lot of the -- it used to be the campaigns went out to mobilize people trying to give them more political information. if you are the obama campaign or dukakis campaign you say i'm going to talk to you about issues you should vote for. the campaigns have a clearer idea, the goal is not to change an opinion or intensify it but

modify behavior. it's what we'll see on tuesday. >> i want to thank sasha, author of "the victory lab" for joining us this morning. appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. >> thanks to citizens united they have spent massive money in the campaign. rtune. nobody said an all-in-one had to be bulky. or that you had to print from your desk. at least, nobody said it to us. introducing the business smart inkjet all-in-one series from brother. easy to use, it's the ultimate combination of speed, small size, and low-cost printing. try running four.ning a restaurant is hard, fortunately we've got ink.

it gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at office supply stores. rewards we put right back into our business. this is the only thing we've ever wanted to do and ink helps us do it. make your mark with ink from chase.

♪ all right. on tuesday night, we will likely have the rilts of the first presidential campaign to take place in the post citizens united era. the supreme court handed down their ruling about how the decision would work mostly visions of how the massive influx of spending by corporations would corrode our politics. some of those predictions have come true and others have not. for example, we have not yet

seen the direct spending from corporate treasuries that many predicted when the ruling came down. what citizens united has done is unleash a class of megadonors. for example, 67% of all super pac donations have come from 209 donors giving $500,000 or more. those kind of donations is one of the reason this is the most expensive campaign in history, $6 billion. there's the growth in dark money, which i think is the most important story. funnel through what are known as issue advocate groups. they do not have to release the name of donors. it's lopsided in support for republicans. this week, the romney campaign and allies spent $96.4 million on ads, more than double obama. however, one prediction that has

largely not come true is the prediction by the obama campaign, once the numbers tally, it would be vastly outspent by republican opponents. >> the first president to be outspent, not because of what romney is raising, but the super pacs. when you have people so active in wisconsin saying they are going to spend $400 million to impact this race, that's more than john mccain and the republican party spent in total last time. it's a source of concern. it should be a source of concern to everyone. >> the republican allies like the coke brothers spent. the obama campaign made up the gap when it comes to costly television advertising. by embracing a target and the fdc gives them a discount on ad rates. i have kim barker, a reporter who writes about campaign finance joining us. thanks for coming back. >> thanks for having me.

>> you have been doing fantastic. what is your sense of what the surprises are in this campaign and the post citizens united world and what are the predictions come true? >> a couple points. number one, you thought corporations were going to be spending a lot of money and giving money to the super pacs. you are not seeing that and seeing the donors come forward. one reason could be that you are seeing the spending by dark money groups. >> we don't know -- >> right. you have some sort of sense, for instance, that aetna gave millions of dollars to a group called american action network. that was accidentally leaked. >> oops. >> you can see why a corporation doesn't want these donations to come out. with target for instance. >> tell the target story. it happens before this campaign got revved up. >> right. >> it kind of, it was like in baseball when you throw a fastball. it was a brushback pitch.

>> target gave money to a candidate, i believe it was in minnesota for the governor who was seen as being anti-gay marriage. as soon as this came out, there was a lot of boycotts, target had to come out and apologize for giving this donation. it was like, why would i want to put this out publicly what i think. there is a sense that, you know, if i want to give money to a particular cause or candidate, i can do it through social welfare and nobody has to know. >> the big ones there are cross roads being run by karl rove. >> yes. >> and the chamber of commerce. i didn't realize how big of a player the commerce is. >> yeah. americans for prosperity, the coke brothers group has been spending more than $40 million at this point on ads specifically against barack obama. you have this sense that there's hundreds of millions of dollars,

probably one in four dollars spent by outside groups are going to be from, who knows. anonymous money. i think it's interesting. i don't think people are talking about it near as much as the super pac. >> they have all the headlines. >> the dark money, the groups that are counted as 501 c 4s. justice kennedy made a point about the importance of disclosure. we are now seeing that violated to the nth degree. >> there are hundreds of hilarious lines by kennedy, but the most hilarious is, look, we always have disclosure. everyone will know who is giving money. it will act. >> they can figure it out and see who is paying for the ads. >> we are looking at the presidential, mostly. you know, the coke brothers are going flip the state legislature in arkansas. you have a guy named rex in

missouri who may flip the state legislature there. you see the possibility of these megabillionaires and millionaires flipping the control of state governments. >> let me make one point. federal election regulations don't extend to state races. in many states, there's been lax regulation. so we are clear, the big money -- >> the only thing i would say, the only hope out of this election is the revulsion among people is so enormous. you have 84% of americans, if you can build that into a real movement across the board saying this corporate money, whether it's super pac or what it's drowning out the voice of the people. it's something we need to build on. not just republicans and democrats. >> the same target example you give applies to some of the private foundations they are

trying to fund. digging around trying to find out about the voter fraud billboards in wisconsin and in cleveland was almost impossible to find out who it was. they did it privately. they didn't want their name disclosed. digging around, i found this. the coke brothers get the attention. they are leading and taking the incoming. some of the foundations are bigger and spend more money. they spend $300 million in ten years under the radar. they are, in turn, funding smaller foundations. they do the actual work. they want to be anonymous, too. >> there's a great story in the times. now that the disclosure window passed for the election, a bunch of super pacs popped up. a new one that took out a buy in north dakota. we won't know who is funding it

until after election day. josh, you are going to make a case after the break. g you tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 low-cost investment options-- tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 like our exchange traded funds, or etfs tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 which now have the lowest tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 operating expenses tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 in their respective tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 lipper categories. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 lower than spdr tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 and even lower than vanguard. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 that means with schwab, tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 your portfolio has tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 a better chance to grow. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 and you can trade all our etfs online, tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 commission-free, from your schwab account. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 so let's talk about saving money, tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 with schwab etfs. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 schwab etfs now have the lowest operating expenses tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 in their respective lipper categories. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 call 1-800-4schwab tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 or visit schwab.com tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 to open an account today. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 funding is easy tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 with schwab mobile deposit. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 investors should consider tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 carefully information tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 contained in the prospectus, tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 including investment objectives, tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 risks, charges, and expenses. you can obtain tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 a prospectus by visiting tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 www.schwab.com/schwabetfs. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 please read the prospectus tdd#: 1-800-345-2550

carefully before investing. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 this reduced sodium soup says it may help lower cholesterol, how does it work? you just have to eat it as part of your heart healthy diet. step 1. eat the soup. all those veggies and beans, that's what may help lower your cholesterol and -- well that's easy [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup.

[ male announcer ] you've reached the age where you don't back down from a challenge. this is the age of knowing how to make things happen. so, why let erectile dysfunction get in your way? talk to your doctor about viagra. 20 million men already have. ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach, and abnormal vision. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. this is the age of taking action. viagra.

talk to your doctor. just to get a sense of the numbers we know, again, we don't have a complete picture. some of the dark money doesn't get disclosed until 60 days afterward. even the stuff that is disclosed in terms of who is giving it won't be disclosed until after the election. $577 million spent by conservative groups. dark money, this is the smaller pool of money that is outside money, but not disclosed through what are social welfare organizations who, under the law the primary person has to be social welfare, helping the community. 81% of that is supporting republicans and 19% democrats. they made a great point.

i want to show this press release. this is great. gas station ad. i don't mean an ad about a gas station, i mean ads at gas stations. they have so saturated the air waves, they have having a change the pump ad. when grow to the local gas station and pump gas on the lcd screen, it's playing a romney ad about the cost of gas. there's no more ad space to buy. josh, i think you have a different perspective than i do. >> this is inevitable. the parts you find the most problematic are the most unconstitutional. i can take out an ad urging you not to eat meat or i can take out an ad urging you to vote for a candidate. donations to campaign committees, which we regulate. but, the parts of this that are basically wealthy individuals

spending their money in order to encourage people to vote, i don't think there's a way to prevent people from spending their money like that. >> if there was a way -- >> we have limits. >> we did for citizens united. >> 1974, the unraveling of a campaign finance structure, infrastructure that led to buckley versus vallejo. the supreme court equating money with speech. there are many ways to carve out first amendment and maintain a democracy. i don't think you can have a democracy with citizens united with dark money and what we are witnessing in terms of the pollution of our already polluted political system. why is anything inevitable in this regard? >> i think money may be anonymous to us, to voters, the dark money coming in. we don't know who is putting that money in. but, i would imagine the candidates know who is putting in $10 million or $100 million. >> i think -- >> wait. let's ask for a response.

>> you can change the disclosure rules. i think it's a good thing to change so we know where the money is coming from. people overstate how much it changed the landscape. we have the 527 groups for citizens united. if you change the law for super pacs, it will look like 527s. i don't think there's a constitutional way to prohibit that. >> let me make this technical point. the coordination was different. in 2004, it really was the case, there was strict enforcement. i know internally, the norms from reporting on this were extremely strict. you do not coordinate. george can spend millions of dollars. you are right, there's a certain amount of spending that is not regulated. you can buy a newspaper. print out leaflets and distribute them. the coordination between

campaigns and outside groups, there was more of a church state separation. this is a technical point of what on the ground looks different. >> slightly defend -- >> it's because the fec is deadlocked. >> will you -- i think this is an underappreciated aspect. there's a regulatory body called the fcc that makes rules that says here is how we will interpret the court's decision and how we make that into on the ground ruling. they have a fair amount of -- >> why is it? explain this to people. >> they can't agree on how to set rules on deciding how to interpret citizens united. it's made up of six people. three of them have to be democrats. three have to be republicans.

>> the republicans obstructed? >> there hasn't been an attempt for new appointments. five of the six commissioners terms are expired. they are continuing to serve. you have three republicans that have a certain viewpoint led by one commissioner who believes there should not be regulations. >> this is the guy that does campaign finance. >> doesn't believe there should be restrictions. >> can i slightly defend josh a little bit? >> slightly. >> in the essential i think the surprise about citizens united is how little effect this money has had on the result. there's a certain point where you reach media saturation. you cannot watch one more ad. they are on so much they are not effective. two, i think it had more of an impact on the republican primary than it did in the general election. three, i think the more insidious thing that happened is you have opened the doors to employers, smaller employers who

have more influence and more possibility of intimidating their own employees. the coercion to vote for the candidate is worse than the money. >> i suspect you disagree with that. i want to hear after we take a break. [ male announcer ] can a car be built around a state of mind? ♪ announcing the all-new 2013 malibu from chevrolet. ♪ with a remarkable new interior featuring the available chevrolet mylink infotainment system. this is where sophisticated styling begins. and where it ends? that's up to you. it's here -- the greatest malibu ever. ♪ johan comes in a porcelain vessel,

crafted with care by a talented blonde from sweden. ♪ smooth, rich, never bitter, gevalia. you walk into a conventional mattress

store, it's really not about you. we have so much technology in our store to really show the customers what's going on with their bodies. this is your body there. you can see a little more pressure in the shoulders and in the hips. ... now you can feel what happens as we raise your sleep number setting and allow the bed to contour to your individual shape. oh, wow. that feels really good. at sleep number we've created a collection of innovations dedicated to individualizing your comfort. the sleep number collection, designed around the innovative sleep number bed - a bed with dualair technology that allows you to adjust to the exact comfort your body needs. each of your bodies. so whatever you feel like, sleep number's going to provide it for you. during our semi-annual sleep sale, save $500 on our classic series special edition bed set-but only while supplies last. sale ends soon! you'll only find the innovative sleep number bed at one of our 400 stores, where queen mattresses start at just $699.

talking about what we have learned from running the first presidential campaign. what's been surprising, what hasn't happened we thought would happen. what of our worst fears have been confirmed. josh is making the case, some of it is inevitable. >> i think it's wrong to say that we -- we still don't know. we still don't know. there's so much to report. what i think we know is that there's going to be a chill in our political system. you see down ballot more than

the presidential. the money pouring into the senate and congressional races. say this won't happen, but a good person wants to run in ohio, representing 99%. first of all, will they enter the race? two, will he or she, when they get into the senate or the house or the state legislature vote in a certain way because of the money fear? the other thing is the coercion. i just came back from moscow, we lectured the russians and the world about how they should vote. i think we should get our own house in order. there's an anger at the russians because they tell workers how to vote in russia. you would lose your job if you don't vote for this boss. what are the coke brothers doing when they demand they go to a romney fund-raiser? it's something we are going to so more of. the most important thing is we come out of the election and take a measure of all the work,

getting the numbers of the irs, getting more information about what we don't know from the secret, dark money operations and try to find ways to reporm the system. >> let me make one distinction that is important. one thing that is surprising about citizens united, it doesn't seem to have tipped the scales. democrats are still -- here is outside money for the top ten -- >> three to one, isn't it? >> yes. they looked like they were going to keep the senate, now they are going keep it in spite of the money. counter factually they have more gains. the point i want to make is we have to distinguish between the partisan results of this and the ideological and governing differences. >> change comes in our system through fear. there's a reason a lot of democrats are the ones sponsoring clean money. the platform, as i recall, the democratic platform has a point to overturn citizens united.

there's a fear they cannot win the arm's race. >> they joined it, a. b, my problem is less that democrats as a party are going to be imperilled but the things i stand for. making sure poor people have access to amazing bountiful wealth and flourishing that is american society. >> that is not on the minds of shelly. >> the point is, that gets written out. you can have a situation where you receive partisan e quill rib yum but they are still playing the game within a certain sector of the electorate, the top 1% they have to get money from who set the agenda. it's that part of it. let's look at ohio. this race where sheriff brown has been buried under all this money. he's still going to win. he's a more populous member of the caucus.

>> they have come out hard at him. it looks like he's going to win. more on this after this break. [ male announcer ] when was the last time something made your jaw drop? campbell's has 24 new soups that will make it drop over, and over again. ♪ from jammin' jerk chicken, to creamy gouda bisque. see what's new from campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. i'd like to thank eating right, whole grain, multigrain cheerios! mom, are those my jeans? [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. multigrain cheerios

but don't just listen to me. listen to these happy progressive customers. i plugged in snapshot, and 30 days later, i was saving big on car insurance. with snapshot, i knew what i could save before i switched to progressive. the better i drive, the more i save. i wish our company had something this cool. you're not filming this, are you?

aw! camera shy. snapshot from progressive. test-drive snapshot before you switch. visit progressive.com today. hello from new york, i'm chris hayes. surprised to see you. here is josh and joy reid, my colleague at and kim. we are talking about money and politics. i'm sorry, the camera surprised me. i didn't realize we were coming back from break. we are talking money and politics and what it looks like, the first citizens united election we had. one thing that's interesting is there's a certain way you have a class of megadonors and you created the conditions for a

huge con job. yes, yes, yes, i will win you as many states as you want. write me a big check for my super pac. it's unclear how much money is being spent effectively. >> you don't know. they have to pay more money for tv ads than a candidate does. the money doesn't go as far. you are not really sure about the messaging. again, how many ads can somebody watch on tv and finally get to the one where they are like oh, that's the one that made me pick this particular candidate. it doesn't make sense one more ad is going to tip you. i think it can make a difference in the last days in a house race. in the presidential campaign, you are like $10 million, $10 million more, does it make a difference? >> you are cynical about the con job. there's a very clear strategy, i

think among the megadonors that they want to invest. what they are investing in political investments. deregulate. they can make billions more. they invest in private equity. >> josh? >> i disagree with that. in some cases it's true. >> particularly on taxes. >> when you are spending money on referendum, i think there's a lot of that. the big part is if you are a rich guy giving money to put tv ads up. it's a money project. you have a message that you want to get out there and you want not just ads for your candidate, but putting out the message you find interesting. giving money in this hopeless house race for rabbi. it's not a rational strategy. it's making them feel good. >> i think there's a distinction

here between interest and ideologs. clearly, the agenda of the republican party is going to help their pockets just in the most vision of taxation. that is clear. there's a certain amount of self-interest. the coke brothers believe in what they believe in. chevron, they don't have fixed beliefs. they just want what's good for chevron. what we have seen is them dominating over interest. but we should be clear, this is just the first it ration of it. the norms are going change. it's not just going to end where it is now. >> if i could say, we are sitting here now on nbc, the media companies have a big stake in this, too. they are making a lot of money on the ads. >> oh, huge. huge. >> how will media -- i know

chris will, but how will media cover citizens united, what we have learned from the presidential election and what will they do about trying to, you know, reregulate what happens. it's a stimulus plan for the networks and the local channel. >> particularly the local channel. affiliates. >> local tv stations made a huge boom from the vanity projects of these multimillionaires. they are like bring it on. it's a vanity project. it's circulated money through the economy. you could argue it's a good thing. at the same time, i think because the right has become such a closed circle and they are only talking to themselves they think putting up an ad saying barack obama is a socialist. they think that's persuasive because they only talk to each other. in a lot of ways, i agree with you, chris, i think this separated a lot of rich people from their money. they think they can persuade, i don't know who with the super

ideological message. all they are doing is stimulating the economy. >> josh? >> i wonder if they are getting what they want out of this. again, i don't think it's about influencing electoral outcomes. it's changing the discussion for entertainment. they want the e lek tral outcome he prefers. i think these people see value in changing the discussion and getting people to talk about barack obama as a socialist. >> totally. talk about the debt and deficit. when democracy now sent a reporter around to talk to the rnc, they got david coke on the camera. why are you spending all this money. the debt and the deficit. the debt and the deficit. there's a lot of pollute cats that want to talk about this. if you poll them, the number one issue is debt and deficit. the conversation is debt and deficit. the correlation are not an

accident. >> it's amazing why we haven't heard about climate change, poverty, housing foreclosure and crisis. they are not issues they really want to be part of. there is a role that the democratic party could play in pushing those forward. this is where the few exceptions, i think many democrats will feel a sense of chill. >> it's media critique. i think, you aren'tly, the political media bought into the idea this is the most important issue ever. i think it's the job of the media to separate what is truly important. >> will you talk about how the obama folks and i say obama folks because of the campaign and the associate and superpac, how they dealt with it and what are the next fights set up once the election is over? >> sure. the obama folks tried to set up super pacs like the republicans did before the 2010 midterms.

you have priority usa action is the big super pac. they have an affiliate called priorities usa, the social welfare nonprofit. you are not hearing anything about it this election. you are not hearing ads bought by the nonprofits. you have priorities usa action has been doing a lot of buys. they are not raising near enough money. >> there's a conflict here because the liberal billionaires are putting them on the hold. it's much harder to raise money. >> right. they are going out and trying to raise money and having a hard time. i have heard from donors saying god, they keep colling and asking for this. i don't want to give this money. there's a better way to spend money in terms of getting out the vote. you have this sort of idea that the democrats want to play, they want to be in the atmosphere. they can't get people to step out on to the field. >> that's interesting. obviously, there's a wealth disadvantage on the left. i think i suspect you are seeing

a difference in opinion about whether this is a good way to spend. >> it might be harder to separate from their money. i want to thank kim the reporter for joining us this morning and your great work. >> thanks a lot. ballot initiatives that could make history, right after this. at shell, we believe the world needs a broader mix of energies. that's why we're supplying natural gas to generate cleaner electricity... that has around 50% fewer co2 emissions than coal. and it's also why, with our partner in brazil, shell is producing ethanol - a biofuel made from renewable sugarcane. >>a minute, mom! let's broaden the world's energy mix. let's go. five days later, i had a massive heart attack. bayer aspirin was the first thing the emts gave me. now, i'm on a bayer aspirin regimen. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. [ woman ] learn from my story.

[ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it... in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. great taste. mmm... [ male announcer ] sounds good. it's amazing what soup can do.

all right. this tuesday, voters across the country will not only elect a president, but cast votes with potential to shape the country's future. look how congress could change. massachusetts, polls show e lizzeth warren leading incumbent republican, scott brown. joe donally with a sizable lead over richard murdock.

in wisconsin, tammy baldwin with a small lead over former republican tommy thompson. it is not just politicians on the ballot. voters will be changing laws themselves directly through hundreds of ballot initiatives with profound and far reaching consequences. in 1994, californians passed a proposition known as the three strikes law with 70% of the vote. anyone convicted of two felonies convicted of a third felony gets a sentence of 25 years to life. it became a model for dozens throughout the country with massive human consequences. over 40% of california prisoners serving life sentences were sentenced for -- african-american despite california being 6.6 african-american. three strikes stands as a stark reminder of the unintended

democracy. the stakes are just as high in the stakes around the country as history is poised to be made. voters have the chance to legalize, regulate and tax marijuana for use by adults. voters in maryland could be the first to endorse gay marriage by popular vote. voters seem poised to pass a proposition that would reform that same three strikes law. using direct democracy. joining us is sue, the director of policy and strategic politics at the state's network. adam, the founder and president of freedom to marry and bob herbert back at the table. sue, i want to start with you. there was an iconic moment in 2004, particularly with the anti-gay marriage ballot initiatives. it seemed like the right seized this particular tactic as their own and were using it.

the other thing that strikes me is this initiatives passed in a bunch of states and taxpayer bill of rights passed in colorado. surveying as i was, it seems to me, maybe this is wrong, but tell me. the left and progressives reclaimed the tool and are kind of on the offensive in this election. >> absolutely. i think it took progressives awhile to realize how powerful boll lot initiatives are, can and should be. when it comes to legislation, policie policies, i think they are moving to a place where they want to be more proactive not only with legislation but ballot initiatives. in a place like california with no less than 11 ballot initiatives, we see efforts to amend the three strikes law. we also see unions coming out in support of raising sales tax and taxing the wealthy and out in opposition to essentially

creating more on regulated spending. >> there's a death penalty repeal that looks like it's around 50/50. it could win. >> right. >> evan, you are a, i think a brilliant strategic mind, if you don't mind my saying. i think the strategy that has been, the freedom to marry folks has been a remarkable thing to behold legislatively. we haven't seen it win at the ballot box popularly. i want to play this chris christie sound. this gets at something profound. when talking civil rights issues, they are not necessarily always best per sued through popular ballot. they are there to protect a minority of the population. chris christie had this to say in new jersey. take a look. >> rather than having stalemate

and deadlock on this issue, which is where it will lead. i will not sign it. it will be vetoed. let the people of new jersey decide who is right for the state. put the question on the ballot this fall, in the hands of the people. people would have been happy to have a referendum, you know, on civil rights rather than fighting and dying in the streets in the south. >> oh. >> yes. >> maybe i have been reading too much but my sense is that was not the case. >> we should have said he's right. look, the last time new jersey put a civil rights question up to the people for a ballot vote was in 1915 when people were asked to vote on whether women should have the right to vote. the men voted it down. >> that's right. it's a rigged -- >> its wrong to be voting on fundamental freedom. your freedom of speech, your freedom of religion, my freedom

to marry. >> why are you doing it? >> it's the system we have. we want to end discrimination. where we are under attack, we have to engage and move forward. the good thing is as we engage the public and talk real families, we have seen them move. many were done at a time people haven't had a clans to talk and think it through. they keep moving the goalpost. we couldn't get people to put gay and marriage in the same sentence. they said we couldn't win in court. we overcame that barrier and said we have the courage to vote for the freedom to marry. we can only get democrats, not republicans. in new york we passed the freedom to marry with republicans as well as democrats. we overcame that. now, we have to overcome this final barrier as a small minority of winning a majority vote. we shouldn't have to do it. it's a bad way to operate in the united states. we have the terrain we have.

we are hopeful on november 6, we will see one or more of the four marriage ballot measures go to victory. >> i want to bring in a master mind. really, a strategically smart campaign in colorado to legalize marijuana after this break. [ female announcer ] a classic meatloaf recipe from stouffer's starts with ground beef, unions, and peppers baked in a ketchup glaze with savory gravy and mashed russet potatoes. what makes stouffer's meatloaf best of all? that moment you enjoy it at home. stouffer's. let's fix dinner. that moment you enjoy it at home. when you take a closer look... ...at the best schools in the world... ...you see they all have something very interesting in common. they have teachers... ...with a deeper knowledge of their subjects. as a result, their students achieve at a higher level.

let's develop more stars in education. let's invest in our teachers... ...so they can inspire our students. let's solve this. and you learned something along the way. this is the age of knowing what you're made of. so, why let erectile dysfunction get in your way? talk to your doctor about viagra. 20 million men already have. ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach, and abnormal vision. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. this is the age of taking action. viagra. talk to your doctor. see if america's most prescribed ed treatment is right for you.

see if america's most prescribed ed treatment try running four.ning a restaurant is hard, fortunately we've got ink. it gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at office supply stores. rewards we put right back into our business. this is the only thing we've ever wanted to do and ink helps us do it. make your mark with ink from chase. [ birds chirping ] are you sure you can fit in there?

[ chuckles ] ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] around view monitor with bird's-eye view. nice work. [ male announcer ] introducing the all-new nissan pathfinder. it's our most innovative pathfinder ever. nissan. innovation that excites. ♪ i want to bring in mason, one of the architects of colorado's amendment 64 to legalize marijuana and director of saferchoice.org. mason, we have seen an initiative like this in the past. there was one in california that failed. i'm curious what lessons you learned in the campaign you are running in colorado that has you poised to be on the preface of

getting this passed. >> thanks for having me. ultimately, what we have seen in colorado is an ongoing discussion about marijuana, about the fact that it's less harmful than alcohol and the failed policy. it's occurred over the last eight years or so here, thanks to ballot initiatives. we are now at a point where people are ready take that step. they are ready move forward and take on a more sensible approach. >> this is the capstone on what has been a long trajectory of public opinion. i want to show national numbers here. in 1969, there was a time when people were smoking pot, 12% favored legalization and 84% opposed it. look at that. the only other graph that looks like that is marriage equality. it's the only other issue you see those numbers. 50% for and 46% opposed. the conversation you are going to have in colorado is

explicitly about alcohol. you seem focused about making the comparison about the two and tieing marijuana prohibition to alcohol prohibition. why is that what you decided to go with? >> everyone in the country realized the failure of alcohol prohibition. it was ineffective, led to organized crime, caused more problems than it solved. the same with marijuana prohibition. we are trying to get people to understand that marijuana is an intoxicating substance like alcohol that millions of americans choose to use and do so responsibly. laws against it are far more problematic. by getting people to understand that marijuana is, you know, a less harmful substance, getting them to understand that we could treat it more sensibly and out of the underground market and away from drug cartels, colorado and people around the nation are

recognizing it's a change that is needed. >> you have a great foil in your governor who former life ran a brew pub, if i'm not mistaken. i think at one point you referred to him ar pete as a drug dealer? >> it was both of them. i call them like i see them. these are guys who are prominent political figures who made a living selling a product that is objectively more harmful than marijuana. it's hypercritical. it's bad public policy. it's time for a change. >> you put together an interesting strange bed foal lows coalition. i want to play a radio ad that is running in colorado. former congressman who is known best on this program for some of the really awful and obscene things he said about immigration. very conservative, very right wing member of congress. he's supporting your initiative.

here is the ad. >> this is former congressman tom. i want to talk to you about a failed government program that wastes tens of millions of dollars annually. it steers to mexico. sounds pretty bad, doesn't it? i have just described marijuana prohibition. it's why i'll vote yes on amendment 64. we know the experiment with alcohol prohibition was a disaster. it ensured criminals profitted from the sale of alcohol. they duped us into supporting a similar prohibition of marijuana. it can be used safely and responsibly by adults. it is time to decide whether you want limited law enforcement going to adult marijuana users or preventing crime that is cause harm to others. it's an easy choice. it's why i'm voting yes on amendment 64. it's paid for to regulate marijuana. >> you call it the campaign to

regulate marijuana like alcohol. it's the most sensible i have ever heard him sound. >> i want to talk about the strategy of per suing this as a ballot initiative. what are things we want in direct democracy and what are things we don't want right after this break. out for drinks, ea. i have very well fitting dentures. i like to eat a lot of fruits. love them all. the seal i get with the super poligrip free keeps the seeds from getting up underneath. even well-fitting dentures let in food particles. super poligrip is zinc free. with just a few dabs, it's clinically proven to seal out more food particles so you're more comfortable and confident while you eat. a lot of things going on in my life and the last thing i want to be thinking about is my dentures. [ charlie ] try zinc free super poligrip. to bring you a low-priced medicare prescription drug plan. ♪ with a low national plan premium... ♪ ...and copays as low as one dollar...

♪ ...saving on your medicare prescriptions is easy. ♪ so you're free to focus on the things that really matter. call humana at 1-800-808-4003. or go to walmart.com for details.

i'd like to thank eating right, whole grain, multigrain cheerios! mom, are those my jeans? [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain

tend to weigh less than those who don't. multigrain cheerios talking about direct democracy in the states and ballot that is will be on the ballot on tuesday. i think people have come partmentalized marijuana as boutique issue. if the state of colorado legalizes marijuana, it's a huge deal. huge deal. people forget that prohibition recall happened in the state's level first. we could see the beginning of the end for it. the other issue and this ties to marijuana because it's a criminal justice issue. the three strikes issue. you have written about this for

a long time. my question for you is, why -- i think when you think about criminal justice issues in the 1994 three strikes campaign, you saw the danger of putting these issues in front of the populous because it's very easy to demagogue. a spokesperson for that was a guy named mike reynolds. this was the 1994 law. he had a horrible, horrible thing happen. his daughter was murdered. anyone who went through that would want revenge. he was the large campaigner, the voice of the proposition. here he is giving his pitch. >> unfortunately, these people had given up their dues card in the human race. they are little more than animals. they look like people, but they are not. the unfortunate thing is they are preying on us.

we have to get them out so we can go about living our lives. >> that's an intense, emotional appeal. do you think the politics have changed from criminal justice? now, almost 20 years later, we are close to maybe seeing california undo that law? >> i think the politics have changed in california. i don't know how much across the country. when you talk the ballot initiatives, i'm generally not a fan of them. we are in a position now where it's the same as with big money in politics. you have to fight fire with fire. otherwise, you are overwhelmed. especially, you made the connection between the criminal justice issues and that's an important connection. they are issues that are driven by passion, often driven by prejudice and ballot initiatives by definition, voters voting who don't understand well the implications, certainly not the long term consequences.

in general, they are dangerous. when you have a situation that is intollerable, you sometimes have no alternative but to take that route. >> when you look at prop 36, if you look at the amount of money that, you know, the naacp, afl put into making sure that campaign is well messaged and communicating effectively to voters. supporters raised $2.6 million in california on prop 36 alone. the opposition raised $100,000. right? that's literally using the big money system to communicate effectively with the public that is feeling the pinch when it comes from the state budget deficit and when grover nor quis talking strange bedfellows amending the three strikes law. he says it's too expensive. >> the polling on prop 36, so folks know, it's over 60%.

63% say yes, no, 22%. it looks like it's poised to pass. >> josh? >> the number that strikes me there, the opponents raised $100,000. a lot of forces that previously favored or previously opposed reforms to three strikes. there's a court order in california forcing the state to shorten their prison population. the state is in a budget crisis. they have to figure out a way to shrink the prison population. groups like district attorneys and the prison guard union that ordinarily might oppose a change of three strikes law settle on this as a way to do it. i think it's why you have seen a lot of republican governors in southern states getting behind prison reform. their hand has been forced by budget situations. >> my question to you is, bob said something interesting which is this. the tactic itself or the tool is

problematic. can you imagine what you are proposing ever getting to the state legislature or is this a case where direct democracy would block it? >> it's both. anyone who says the legislative process and the legislature is unproblematic is a fool. the fact that a lot of times there are issues the legislature should take up that they will not take up. we need to get in front of them. this initiative simply forces the legislature to regulate marijuana in a manner similar to alcohol. we are not creating these very detailed regulations and rules in our laws by a ballot initiative. we are saying the legislature must do this. i think it's what a responsible ballot initiative entails, crafting it in a way that it's not tieing the hands of our state, but forcing state

representatives to take this issue on and represent the people on it. >> i think there's a piece there, too, when it comes to ballot initiatives. there's two opportunities. there's a piece about being proactive and undoing the damage we have seen in a state like california or again, for example poised to increase revenue by repealing corporate tax loopholes. california has a initiative to tax the rich. you have other initiatives like in maryland, for example, there's not only gay marriage but a ballot initiative that is there to repeal a law that the state legislature passed last year to allow undocumented students to attend state universities. >> the dream act. >> exactly. what we are seeing in maryland is the conservatives put on their vests to repeal something the legislature already passed, that the governor signed.

right? and conservatives are like oh no, this is happening, we have to do something about it. >> mason, thanks for joining us. the campaign you are running is fascinating. >> thanks for having me. >> we'll be right back. ah. fire bad! just have to fire roast these tomatoes. do you churn your own butter too? what? this is going to give you a head start on your dinner. that seems easier sure does who are you? [ female announcer ] new progresso recipe starters. five delicious cooking sauces you combine with fresh ingredients to make amazing home-cooked meals. ♪ ambiance [ female announcer ] new progresso recipe starters. your head-start to home cooked.

[ female announcer ] new progresso recipe starters. a wiit takes some doing.n't just happen. some coordinating. and a trip to the one place with the new ideas that help us pull it all together. from the things that hang and shine... ...to the things that sparkle and jingle. all while saving the things that go in our wallet. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. trade in any light string and get up to five bucks off the latest holiday leds.

we are talking about state ballot initiatives. there's a number of important ones on the ballot. what's interesting to me about state ballot initiatives is this was originally part of the progressive movement. it's by progressives to do an end. the idea being the state legislatures are captured by the big interest. we are going to bring it to the people and the unintended consequence is big money like squeezing a balloon flowed to the propositions. evan, your group is involved in maine, minnesota, maryland and washington. >> washington state. >> right. you have to raise a lot of money

for these. this is not a grass roots -- i mean it's grass roots at a certain level but running a big campai campaign. >> it is grass roots. the reason we may succeed this year is because we have been knocking on doors, having conversations with neighbors. not just in the political moment but over years. it's persuasion over time that's helped people change their hearts and minds on the freedom to marry. to run a political campaign with the air wave war you have to wage. it does cost millions and millions of dollars. freedom to marry had to raise millions of dollars to channel into the states just to enable them to continue making the case to voters. >> i think you have to make an important point. ballot initiatives or not, what's going on is sustained citizen action. mobilization and that sort of thing. i think there's not enough of

that. that is how you fight back. this is taking the form of ballot initiatives referendums. you can make headway no matter what the tactics are. it's the mobilization that is important. sthak is true but let me say the opposition can still do their stuff with huge amounts of money and scare tactic ads where there's no grass roots or engagement. they are able to scare that small slice of voters who may be uncertain or struggling. why this success can depend and needs to depend on citizen engagement, the problem with this kind of system is, it allows for huge amounts of money to be channelled in. >> sometimes one wealthy person will get the idea -- there's a crazy, i'm going to maybe get this wrong. i shouldn't say it on here but what the heck. in missouri, the wealthy missouri multimillionaire, probably billionaire, rex zingerman i want to say is his

last name was in the new york times. he's been putting things on the ballot in missouri on whether st. louis can raise their own city taxes. the state voters are voting on it. you can give -- the wealthy congressman from california was the master mind behind the recall effort. he funded that. you have to get a lot of petitio petitions. my question to you, i was in a room in 30 states talking about ballot not a hand in the room went up. i thought it was interesting. it seems like it's this tool that's been used effectively. these are community based progressive groups. still liked it and wanted it as an option. >> what you see with social issues, right? marijuana legalization, gay

marriage and civil unions. you are seeing the opportunity to move in the same direction. you see younger voters much more comfortable with civil unions, gay marriage, immigration, marijuana legalization and some form of, you know, criminal justice reform. you are seeing on opportunity to lean where the ek electorate is. you are seeing group that is are not sure weather they want to give that up. >> rex is the man in missouri. i was thinking of the deli in ann arbor, michigan. i don't fully agree with that. i don't think it's right to qualify their freedom to marry as a social issue. this is a fundmental issue. forcing that group of people not just to be able to go to court like anyone else or go to the legislature. raise millions of dollars to defend the constitution. it's not america. itis not the way it should work.

>> i hear you. it's the place we have to be. unfortunately, some of the issues continue to be perceived by some folks whether special interest of the parties in particular, the party establishment as issue that is are toxic. >> great to have you. thanks for joining us. >> of course. >> what you should know for the news week ahead, coming up next. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso. in what world do potatoes, bacon and cheese add up to 100 calories? your world. ♪ [ whispers ] real bacon... creamy cheese... 100 calories... [ chef ] ma'am [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup.

you're not using too much are you, hon? ♪ nope. [ female announcer ] charmin ultra soft is so soft you'll have to remind your family they can use less. charmin ultra soft is made with extra cushions that are soft and more absorbent. plus you can use four times less versus the leading value brand. don't worry, there's plenty left for you dad. we all go. why not enjoy the go with charmin ultra soft?

in just a moment, what you should know for the week ahead. first, a quick update on a story we have been following. we told you of e-mails we obtained from software solutions pressuring his employees to support romney. ceos across the country from coke brothers to owners of small

and medium sized businesses partook in such activities. this is from the president of the saddle creek association. it employs more than 3,000 people across the country. the president, cliff, sent an e-mail to employees writing in the past saddle creek has not felt it imperative to communicate with associates regarding political efforts for our business. this year, it's starkly different. we feel it would be wrong for us not to share with you the company's position on a few of the critical issues and how the candidates compare. we do not support candidates based on their political affiliation. we support those that share our position. thank you for considering what saddle creek believes is in the best interest of our company and therefore our jobs and our future. attached to the e-mail is a flyer that reads we are close to

an important election. every vote counts. never before has it posted such a contrasting view on how to achieve success for most americans. they have a clear position on issues that have a profound effect of the company. they list two key issues, energy and taxes and highlights which the company supports. all of mitt romney's positions are highlighted. in a statement, cliff said saddle communication was directed to employees for whom they have the greatest appreciati appreciation. it would ensure they are fully informed on it. the document speaks for itself. we'll post it on up.msnbc.com. what should you know for the week coming up? if you are a voter in ohio's 16th congressional district, you may be about to get an offensive

campaign mail. jill is distributing the flyer to attack better betty sutton. she's taking her jobs to go with a picture of i chinese food takeout container and dprask of chopsticks pulling out $100 bills and using our tax dollars to create jobs in china because she voted for the recovery act. a piece of legislation that increased number of people employed by up 1.5 million. it's something not so sweet but sour. as we documented on the show, offensive ugly racist anti-china campaign themes are not limited to this campaign and not limited to one party. whatever problems we on the right and left have with the current model of chinese governance and economic development, we should be clear that our problems are mott with the chinese people who have as much of a right to lily hood as

americans do. lists up standards in both countries and benefits both chinese and american workers. you should know that red hook brooklyn is one of the areas in new york city most devastated by hurricane sandy. in response, an organization called the red hook initiative is providing emergency supplies, hot meals, access to power and communications among other things. they're putting out a call for donations and supplies to support their efforts. if you'd like to donate, go to rhi center.org. you should also know that tuesday election day and if you live in one of the part of the country after ravaged by sandy, there's contingency plans so people can vote. we have a list at the up with chris tumbler. up with chris.tumbler.com. i'll be making an appearance at the msnbc experience store at 30 rockefeller plaza here in new york on election day, november 6th. from 2:30 to 3:30 eastern time. i'll be signing copies of my book. for more information go to our facebook page at facebook.com/up

with chris. want to find out what my guests think we should know heading into election week. >> if you're a voter in california, you probably already know that the voter guide is 144 pages long pause there are 11 ballot o measures for californians to vote on. as usual, most of the questions put to them are stupid. the three strikes reform notwithstanding. that's your statewide vote. if you live in san francisco, you have an additional seven local questions to vote on. if we're thinking about whether ballot initiative is a good idea, putting too much pressure on voters to make too many minute decisions, the answer is yes. >> california has metastasized to a point -- the initiative process in california specifically is pretty broken. swr joy. >> you should know that the drama could play out in the courts. an updated -- the florida democratic party has gone to federal court to sue governor

rick scott for refusing to issue an executive order extending early voting hours beyond saturday. the cutoff is sunday, obviously with the law that cut early vote egg from 14 to 8 days. the lines are wrapped around the block and they're demanding more time for voters to vote and particularly long lines in the democratic part of the state, in the south. in ohio, democrats have gone to court because the secretary of state, john houston, changed the provisional ballot that mostly poor people have to vote on. they changed it on a way that the voter has to input the i.d. information. which is in contra vengs to ohio state law who says it's a poll worker's job to put that in. almost all poor people have to vote with their social security number in ohio. they'll be voting on provisional ballots. big disen tran chiesment. >> approximate you're a voter in

ohio, you may know what the nation's cover story revealed last week. romney's pailout bonanza that mitt romney and his wife made at least $15 million on the very auto industry rescue program that he condemned. and a group of labor unions, the uaw, sciu and good government groups brought an action this past week asking the federal government and ethics office to look into romney's disclosures. i think americans have a full right to know the conflict of interests mitt romney and his wife had, as well as the $4 million that mitt romney's wall street donors, paul singer, made from the auto industry rescue. >> i mean, a funny conflict of interest insofar as she's opposing it and profiting it off in. >> maybe that's a -- >> mitt romney will say it's in a blind trust. that blind trust, i never fail to point out which is run by his

family attorney which does not meet the threshold for actual blind trusts where they're stipulated by law. bob herbert. >> we found out that the congressional research service, a highly respected operation has drawn a report that it did that shows that there was no correlation between top tax rates and economic growth. why did they withdraw it? because of pressure from senate republicans. that's the republican party, get rid of -- lower top tax rates and jobs will be created. this report said no. but now that report has been withdrawn >> i've talked approximate this issue with people, conservative economists. the data doesn't back it up. at a certain point it does. if you have a high top marginal tax rate you'll see it. across industries and places in the world and across states, you don't see it bear out. i was joking that the congressional research service climate scientists and nate

silver are the evil triad of enemies of the people bringing their book learning. i want to thank my guests, josh barro from bloomberg, joy reid, katrina vand en hoover from the -- and robert herbert. thank you all. >> thank you for joining us. we'll be back next weekend, saturday and sunday at 8:00 eastern time with our full kochblg of the election results and a look at the battles ahead. we'll find out what nate silver has to say about his famous election forecast. he'll be here. up next is melissa harris-perry. on today's mhp, if you thought it was over? think again. the man behind the billboards is unmasked. the foul play in ohio continues and groundwork is being set for legal challenges. that's melissa harris-perry coming up next. tonight, vice president joe biden will be on a special edition of "hardball" airing at 7:00 p.m. eastern. see you next week here on up. go vote. people love our potpourri parties.

it's a smell of a good time. this is the juniper! oh that is magical. [ male announcer ] when you combine creamy velveeta with zesty rotel tomatoes and green chiles, you'll get a bowl of queso that makes even this get-together better.

but i still have a runny nose. [ male announcer ] dayquil doesn't treat that. huh? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus rushes relief to all your worst cold symptoms, plus it relieves your runny nose. [ sighs ] thank you! [ male announcer ] you're welcome. that's the cold truth!